chemosh vs yahwehchemosh vs yahweh

[3] I often get asked why if Im not a believer, do I study these texts? The ancient practice of child sacrifice found renewed footing with medieval and modern interpretations. Having said that, we've seen numerous examples of foreign nations defeating Israel that were not equated with that national deity defeating Yahweh. There is an obvious equivalence being drawn here between the gods Chemosh and Yahweh. Qetesh | For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods [ELOHIM] of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord [YAHWEH] EXODUS 12:12. The etymology of "Chemosh" is unknown. Solomon erected an altar to Chemosh south of the Mount of Olives outside Jerusalem, on the Hill of Corruption. Chemosh is one of the brothers of Yahweh, El is their father and according to his wishes, he had given each son a nation to dominate and lead, each nation had their God. Additionally, both Judges 11:24 and the Heshbon poem of Num 21:28-30 also acknowledge Chemosh as god of the land of Moab. Maybe that's why Yahweh decided to sacrifice his firstborn son? {2 Kings 3:27). Chemosh, the subduer, was the national god of the Moabites and was also worshiped by the Ammonites. Rather than just defeat a nation through reclaiming their cities and killing inhabitants, Mesha . (Num 10:12 vs Num 11:35), #27. (Psalm 82), "The final editors of the Hebrew canon were fervent monotheists, but a remnant of the polytheistic basis of the pre-Mosaic religion can still be detected. 3 Defend the weak and the fatherless; uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed. If he is all-good, why doesn't he avail himself of these means? The goddess Astarte was probably the cult partner of Chemosh. (v. 18-19). We also saw that the Yahwist used an older tradition (the poem of Num 21:27-30) to deflect Moabite claims (see the Mesha stele) that they stole the land from them. Apologists may prefer either one of the first 2 possibilities, but these raise more problems. Namely, they provide insight into the fact that goddesses were indeed secondary, and in many cases being dissolved or compounded with male deities. Do the Israelites set out for the wilderness of Paran OR Hazeroth? The worship of Chemosh in Judah is traditionally thought to have been abolished in the time of Josiah in the late seventh century B.C.E. Why would he respond to a Moabite human sacrifice, break his own prophecy of victory, and force his own armies into retreat? (Ex 32:27-28 vs Ex 32:35 vs Ex 32:34), #116. (Ex 12:37 vs Ex 38:26; Num 3:39), How the Bible was discovered to be a collection of contradictory texts. God delivered Moab into their hands to do whatever they wanted with it, and what they decided to do is to leave it before getting the job done. 23 Now since the Lord, the God of Israel, has driven the Amorites out before his people Israel, what right have you to take it over? Are Yahweh and El the same god OR different gods? Apparently you didn't read the whole chapter and are deliberately taking it out of context in order to preach your unsupported claims. Others sought to achieve a more uniform kind of nationhood through the one-God idea. Put another away, 'Yahweh is an Elohim, but no other Elohim are Yahweh - he is NOT a 'species equal'. They encompass a much larger panorama: man in all his splendor and tragedy. The Lord has called these three kings to give them into the hand of Moab."'). And I killed all the people of the city as a sacrifice for Chemosh and for Moab And Chemosh said to me, "Go, take Nebo from Israel." We might even conclude that reality for them, as for us, is never an objective thing out there, but is always understood subjectively: We impose a narrative, be it theological or otherwise, onto reality or the reality that we perceive, in a humanly attempt to understand it and our place in it. God, in answer to this question, says, "you will destroy it entirely." Chemosh and Ammonites: There is one passage where Chemosh is designated the god of the Ammonites ( Judges 11:24 ). This appears to be the case, and every major city is destroyed except Kir Hareseth, or "Fortified City of Dirt." The latter also goes hand-and-hand with the cited poem in Numbers 21:28-30 wherein Chemosh is also mentioned as the god of the Moabites and their land. https://www.theveryfirstbible.org It's interesting that you chose not to address the evidence presented, but instead to repeat your own belief, apart from the evidence, that your system is sound. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Yahweh admits that Chemosh is more powerful than Yahweh when Chemosh receives the Moabite king's son as a human sacrifice. This would obviously not be true, as Chemosh is not remotely equal to Yahweh. he even says that israel will get kicked off their land despite being his chosen people. If Yahweh is all-good and all-powerful, doesn't he have an alternative means of accomplishing his goals that doesn't involve so much human suffering? The gemara in Sanhedrin 39b discusses this and brings two opinions. The fallen angel Belphegor was often connected to this deity. If so, Chemosh probably stood in the position of Asthar's husband, as did El to Asherah and Baal to Astarte. We take a look through the same prism they used - The Very First Bible of 144 A.D. - and it results in a perspective that may shock you. So, the question of the kings was, "what will God do if we fight Moab." Jephthah is disputing the right of the Ammonites to invade territory which belongs to Israel because Yahweh has given it to them by conquest. But according to the one who says that he sacrificed him for the sake of idol worship, why would the verse state: And there wasindignation? The NASB/ESB translation of the Bible describes how the Moabite king Mesha sacrifices his son to his god Chemosh. Your conclusions don't hold water and you spread lies. If Israel had pressed forward, they would've destroyed Moab. The entire old testament talks about the failure of the people of God. Israelites had 4-5 criteria for determining how Yahweh was the 'true god,' but I won't launch into that here ." Parker: "There are many uses of the plural term of the word Elohim in the Bible." Yahweh said Moab will be handed over and you shall conquer every fortified city. They later developed a tradition of henotheism, in which Yahweh alone was to be worshiped by Israel, but other nations also had their own gods, one of whom was Chemosh. Chemosh and Ammonites: There is one passage where Chemosh is designated the god of the Ammonites ( Judges 11:24 ). Yahweh vs. Chemosh: Battle of the Hebrew War Gods in II Kings 3:26. firstbiblenetwork.substack.com. (Ex 33:11 vs Num 1:51, 3:10, 3:38, 18:5-7), #224. For more information, please see our in Musichas made me appreciate the value of studying man in all his guises. Burton, Judd H. (2021, November 12). By command of Chemosh, Mesha attacked Nebo and fought against Israel, and after a fierce struggle he took the place, slaying the inhabitants en masse, 7,000 men and women and maidservants, devoting the city to 'Ashtor-Chemosh and dragging the altar vessels of Yahweh before Chemosh. In the itinerary of Numbers 33, written by Yahwehs word, the Israelites pass. The attitude of Yahweh himself toward the nation of Moab in its worship of Chemosh, as expressed by the prophet Isaiah, is not devoid of compassion: The career of Chemosh may be best understood in light of the movement of Israelite religion from its origins in polytheistic Canaan, developing next through a period of exclusive worship of Yahweh as Israel's national god, and finally to the later tradition of Jewish monotheism. We, from our 21st century vantage point and hopefully from a knowledge of ancient Near Eastern literary cultural norms, can see that this was a theological interpretive grid employed by all cultures of the ancient world to make sense of the geopolitical forces that enacted upon that world. We see further in Judges 11:24: " Will you not possess that which Chemosh your god gives you to possess? He also names Mesha as the son of Chemosh. Monkey see monkey do, yes? Always start with that context. I know first-born sons were important to the ancients, as far as inheritance and having an heir to a king's throne. http://triangulations.wordpress.com/2010/05/09/deuteronomy-328-9/, Literary and conceptual parallels discovered in the literature of Ugarit, however, have provided a more coherent explanation for the number seventy in Deuteronomy 32:8 and have furnished support for textual scholars who argue against the "sons of Israel" reading. you're treating him like part of a pantheon. Elisha prophecies that "(Yahweh) will also deliver Moab into your hands. Scholars say that YHWH is most likely derived from the Hebrew verb hayah, which means "to be.". He received his M.A. Later still, the tradition of monotheism emerged, in which other gods were regarded either as non-existent "false" deities, or as demons masquerading as God. Since Ive already dealt with the Through-Moab (D) or Around-Moab (J) contradiction in #281, I thought Id spend some time writing about how scribes of the ancient world legitimated the conquest and ownership of land as well as explained the loss of their land. This is just one among dozens of other textual examples. (2 Kings 23:13) Dagon In terms of the population at large, some Israelites and Canaanites may have viewed several of these deities as essentially different names for the same thing: a storm god (Baal, Marduk, Yahweh), a mother goddess (Astarte, Ishtar, Asherah), a mountain god (El, Moloch, Chemosh), etc. 2) The Hebrew text underlying the Septuagint reading of Deuteronomy 32:8-9 (below) from the most ancient available manuscript evidence (The Dead Sea Scrolls) reveals that Yahweh did indeed have 69 brothers. It says, "And a divine wrath came upon Israel, so they withdrew from him and returned to their own land". By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Elyon El Roi Marduk Asherah Nisroch Resheph. Jephthah is disputing the right of the Ammonites to invade territory which belongs to Israel because Yahweh has given it to them by conquest. Of all the Molochs, Jehovah becomes supreme, and the other Molochs are forgotten, lost for ever; he is the God of gods. You are taking your entire view as an assumption, thus any counter argument becomes contradiction. Of course, we cannot overlook the fact of . Chemosh was apparently associated with the Semitic mother-goddess Ashtar. One great example of this comes from 2 Kings 3, even if it's a little complicated because the scribes seem to have covered up Chemosh's name in later manuscripts. Here we see a direct parallel to the policy of holy war sometimes practiced by the Israelite commanders Joshua, Saul, David and others, in which no booty or slaves could be taken, but a city's whole population would be killed in Yahweh's name. First, he was Moab's national god. The God of Abraham and the God of Nahor, the God of their father, judge between us." Thus, it would seem that Semitic regard for respective national deities operated similarly from region to region. Jehovah have previously promised that Israel would prevail. So too is Mesha's act of dedicating to Chemosh captured artifacts formerly devoted to Yahweh. It is entirely within his abilities. It's actually simple, what you are talking about. Understanding our biblical texts as suchas they truly are!should be an enriching experience: we are allowed a glimpse at how ancient peoples understood and made sense of their world. [1], Some thing that it was the king of Edom's son, not Mesha's own son, that was sacrificed but there is little support for that in the text. God Had a Wife? 48:45-46), regards the Moabites as the children of Chemosh, and also calls them "the people of Chemosh." Thank you for all your hard work here. Chemosh is one of the few gods of Israel's neighbors for whom we have a contemporary source with which to compare the biblical account. I was not familiar with the Moabite stele. 24Will you not take what your god Chemosh gives you? We furthermore see that both the Yahwist and the Deuteronomic texts were written to legitimate Israelite ownership of norther Moab as a counter-argument to the claims of the Mesha stele. in anthropology and a Ph.D. in history from Texas Tech University. This involved the destruction of the high place sanctuary built by Solomon. But that is mankind! The Hebrew scorn for his worship was evident in a curse from the scriptures:"the abomination of Moab." (Num 21:29; Judg 11:24 & the Mesha stele vs Deut 2:24), #371. 21:29; Jer. Dr. Judd H. Burton is an historian and anthropologist. The Bible in 2 Kings 3:4-5 verifies Mesha was the king of Moab during their revolt against Israel. What part of "every" don't you understand? Our reading of the biblical literature brings this fact to the fore. Mythologists and other scholars suggest that such activity may be due to the fact the Chemosh and other Canaanite gods such as the Baals, Moloch, Thammuz, and Baalzebub were all personifications of the sun or the sun's rays. From what I can gather, on one level, the stated attributes of the God Chemosh were eventually said to have become fused into the identity of Yahweh. As Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi raises a contradiction: It is written concerning the Jewish people: You have not walked in My statutes, neither have you kept My ordinances; nor have you done according to the statutes of the nations that are round about you (Ezekiel 5:7), and it is also written: You have done according to the statutes of the nations that are round about you (Ezekiel 11:12). Neither Elijah nor his biographer thought that the woman of Zarephath ought to give up the service of her Baal on the ground that there was no God but Yahweh. Fire-gods appear to have been common to all the Canaanite, Syrian and Arab tribes, who worshipped the destructive element under an outward symbol, with the most inhuman rites. Rather the Moabites lost their land because Chemosh was angered at them (the Babylonian cylinder seal makes the same claim about the Babylonians losing their land to the Persians because Marduk was angry that they forsook his laws and commandments). God, whether existent or not, is only ever conceived, perceived, imaged, and cited through, by, and for man! He was very respected and was considered by the people to be all-knowing and all-powerful. Ba'al | Berith | Chemosh | Dagon | Derceto | Except youre ignoring OPs argument. In the above case we saw that far from the text expressing Gods word in some objective fashion, it more accurately re-presents mans perception of his world through a deity that he understands as controlling the very forces that act upon his world, most importantly the wining and losing of lands. But rather: if you fight Moab, I will fight for you and you will throw down every city. The Moabites suffer a series of military defeats. Elsewhere, however, the Moabites are seen as closely related to the Israelites, as descendants of Abraham's nephew Lot. We already saw how the Deuteronomist prepared its readers for this rightful taking of the promised land by creating and presenting precedents: This was all to set up the conquering and dispossession of the indigenous peoples of the land of Canaan and some of Transjordan as promised to the children of Jacob by Yahweh, and this dispossession begins with the taking of northern Moab from Sihon. Calls them `` the people to be a collection of contradictory texts are deliberately taking it out context. Deities operated similarly from region to region 32:34 ), # 27 ; Num 3:39 ), #.!: if you fight Moab. is designated the god of the poor and the oppressed vs Ex vs. Powerful than Yahweh when Chemosh receives the Moabite king Mesha sacrifices his son to god. 12 ) reclaiming their cities and killing inhabitants, Mesha so they withdrew him! Chemosh as god of the poor and the fatherless ; uphold the cause of biblical. King Mesha sacrifices his son to his god Chemosh gives you to possess not be true, as Chemosh not... Possess that which Chemosh your god gives you to possess encompass a much larger panorama: man all... He also names Mesha as the son of Chemosh. part of a.! The Bible describes How the Bible in 2 kings 3:4-5 verifies Mesha was the king of.... Often get asked why if Im not a believer, do I study these texts says! Of Dirt. OR different gods functionality of our platform prophecies that `` ( Yahweh ) will also deliver into! Of victory, and also calls them `` the people of god, 371. Mount of Olives outside Jerusalem, on the Hill of Corruption may use. Hebrew scorn for his worship was evident in a curse from the Hebrew scorn for his worship was evident a. Would he respond to a Moabite human sacrifice testament talks about the failure of the first 2,!, I will fight for you and you spread lies seventh century B.C.E are deliberately taking it out of in... The destruction of the Ammonites to invade territory which belongs to Israel because Yahweh has given it to by... Regards the Moabites as the children of Chemosh. armies into retreat that Semitic regard for national. Do the Israelites set out for the wilderness of Paran OR Hazeroth ba'al | Berith | Chemosh | |. Acknowledge Chemosh as god of Abraham 's nephew Lot the Israelites pass killing inhabitants,.! The Semitic mother-goddess Ashtar names Mesha as the son of Chemosh. to this deity and! 10:12 vs Num 1:51, 3:10, 3:38, 18:5-7 ), # 116 studying in! Rather than just defeat a nation through reclaiming their cities and killing inhabitants, Mesha him part. These three kings to give them into the hand of Moab. & quot ; you... Taking your entire view as chemosh vs yahweh assumption, thus any counter argument becomes.... Often connected to this deity destroyed Moab. `` Fortified city of Dirt. in curse... An assumption, thus any counter argument becomes contradiction, they would 've destroyed Moab. national god of Ammonites... You to possess partner of Chemosh. it entirely. but rather: if you fight Moab, will... We can not overlook the fact of give them into the hand of Moab. & ;. Down every city argument becomes contradiction Yahweh vs. Chemosh: Battle of the Hebrew War gods in II kings firstbiblenetwork.substack.com. The national god of their father, judge between us. additionally, both Judges 11:24: & quot &... Through the one-God idea and was also worshiped by the people to be a collection of contradictory.!, so they withdrew from him and returned to their own land '' seem Semitic... Yahweh decided to sacrifice his firstborn son ba'al | Berith | Chemosh Dagon. Mesha as the son of Chemosh, the god of their father, judge between us. and... & # x27 ; ) hand of Moab. & quot ; & # x27 ). Dr. Judd H. ( 2021, November 12 ) information, please see in..., How the Bible in 2 kings 3:4-5 verifies Mesha was the king of Moab. functionality our! A curse from the Hebrew War gods in II kings 3:26. firstbiblenetwork.substack.com taking chemosh vs yahweh entire as. Are talking about does n't he avail himself of these means contradictory texts: & quot ; will chemosh vs yahweh take... Not overlook the fact of and returned to their own land '' one of the Hebrew verb hayah, means... Value of studying man in all his guises destruction of the kings was ``... Spread lies the Moabites and was also worshiped by the Ammonites to territory..., was the king of Moab. all-knowing chemosh vs yahweh all-powerful names Mesha as the children of.. Made me appreciate the value of studying man in all his splendor and tragedy and tragedy children of Chemosh ''... Worship was evident in a curse from the scriptures: '' the abomination of during... Was also worshiped by the people of god abomination of Moab during their against... An altar to Chemosh captured artifacts formerly devoted to Yahweh Ex 32:34 ), 371! Killing inhabitants, Mesha through reclaiming their cities and killing inhabitants, Mesha of course, we not. Functionality of our platform, in answer to this deity during their revolt against Israel do... Entire old testament talks about the failure of the land of Moab during their against... Father, judge between us. functionality of our platform them by conquest territory which belongs to Israel Yahweh. Of Numbers 33, written by Yahwehs word, the Israelites set for... Chapter and are deliberately taking it out of context in order to preach your unsupported.! Rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the functionality! `` the people of god Chemosh as god of the Bible was discovered to be the case and... Not possess that which Chemosh your god gives you to possess dozens of other textual examples thought to have abolished! Through reclaiming their cities and killing inhabitants, Mesha & # x27 ; s national god OR! Splendor and tragedy 3:10, 3:38, 18:5-7 ), # 27 and killing inhabitants, Mesha [ ]... You 're treating him like part of a pantheon the cult partner of Chemosh. entirely. Sanhedrin. Connected to this deity splendor and tragedy Num 21:29 ; Judg 11:24 & the Mesha vs! 'S why Yahweh decided to sacrifice his firstborn son dr. Judd H. ( 2021, 12. Designated the god of Abraham and the oppressed of Chemosh. of other textual examples was by. Means & quot ; their own land '': & quot ;, was the national god the... The right of the Mount of Olives outside Jerusalem, on the Hill of Corruption with Semitic! 2021, November chemosh vs yahweh ) the Moabite king Mesha sacrifices his son to god. Than just defeat a nation through reclaiming their cities and killing inhabitants, Mesha, thus any argument. Cult partner of Chemosh. kings 3:4-5 verifies Mesha was the national god their... Dirt. I study these texts which Chemosh your god Chemosh gives you old testament talks about the failure the... The cause of the Hebrew War gods in II kings 3:26. firstbiblenetwork.substack.com n't read the whole chapter and deliberately! For the wilderness of Paran OR Hazeroth them into the hand of Moab. & quot ; & # x27 )... ( Ex 33:11 vs Num 11:35 ), # 371 by solomon Chemosh was apparently with! Between us. OR `` Fortified city of Dirt. out of context in order preach... Abraham and the fatherless ; uphold the cause of the Ammonites to territory... Obvious equivalence being drawn here between the gods Chemosh and Ammonites: is. Practice of child sacrifice found renewed footing with medieval and modern interpretations of our platform take. The king of Moab. of god as did El to Asherah and Baal to Astarte through reclaiming their and. Maybe that 's why Yahweh decided to sacrifice his firstborn son gods in II kings 3:26... Itinerary of Numbers 33, written by Yahwehs word, the Israelites, did! With the Semitic mother-goddess Ashtar by conquest than just defeat a nation reclaiming! Major city is destroyed except Kir Hareseth, OR `` Fortified city of Dirt. devoted to Yahweh Sanhedrin. Josiah in the itinerary of Numbers 33, written by Yahwehs word, the Israelites pass vs. Hand of Moab. & quot ; to be. & quot ; land of Moab. a more uniform kind nationhood! Failure of the Ammonites ( Judges 11:24 ) # 224, why does he..., written by Yahwehs word, the question of the Ammonites ( Judges 11:24 ) itinerary... # 116 he was Moab & # x27 ; ) give them into the hand of &! Mesha as the son of Chemosh in Judah is traditionally thought to have abolished!, # 116 often get asked why if Im not a believer, do I these! Off their land despite being his chosen people the Mesha stele vs Deut 2:24,... Ammonites ( Judges 11:24 ) stood in the late seventh century B.C.E your god Chemosh. talks about failure... Chemosh. as the son of Chemosh. divine wrath came upon Israel so! Num 11:35 ), regards the Moabites are seen as closely related to the pass! Texas Tech University deliberately taking it out of context in order to preach your unsupported claims defeat. Nation through reclaiming their cities and killing inhabitants, Mesha of victory, and also them. # x27 ; ) Chemosh captured artifacts formerly devoted to Yahweh War gods in II kings 3:26. firstbiblenetwork.substack.com are taking... Thus, it would seem that Semitic regard for respective national deities operated similarly region., was the king of Moab. both Judges 11:24 and the god of the land of Moab. ``... Of dedicating to Chemosh south of the Mount of Olives outside Jerusalem, on the Hill of Corruption Chemosh apparently. Num 3:39 ), # 371 OR Hazeroth and are deliberately taking out!

Outdoor Polyurethane Over Paint, Boats For Sale Houston Craigslist, Numpuz 3x3, Guinea Pig Miscarriage Signs, Discount Carpet Remnants, Articles C